How quickly they can bleed

[ecodweeb]

I had the ultimate scare, but thanks to staying calm (that is, I did not breaking down/crying until after we got to the vet) and quick action on my part Lulu is OK.

I still feel very much horrible this even happened.

It was Sunday night, my partner's mother and sister were enroute to pick him up and take him to a surprise birthday dinner - I was in on this. Lulu had been somewhat good today, she stepped up, had a bath, and we were using the dremel on her upper mandable to get the thick flaking hull off her beak (because she'd not had any scratching perches before she came to us). Well we got that done and Butch got bit in the process and suggested we try and trim the edges of her beak.

Well, this was business as usual to me, we got the sides but the tip of the upper mandible she was fussy about, I didn't realize at the time she might be too close to puncturing a blood line. So I used my normal clippers, got the tip off and before I could use the dreme... blood.

Just a drop or two, she wasn't screaming so I figured flour (like I've used on a broken blood feather or a toe nail with phoenix) would be OK. That didn't stop it.

Butch started to panic, and I had to yell that panicking was NOT going to help, to call Avian and Exotic; who was closed but left the number on their vmail to the After Hours Animal Care not far from us, I called them and got directions. Off we went.

From the time we left and drove the about 7-8 miles to the vet, we lost this much blood:



To say I was scared I was going to have her die enroute puts it mildly. I don't know how I kept myself. The vet actually said I was distraught but very well behaved during the event -- they thanked me for not "flipping out" on them like so many others do.

A mere $112 later, they cauterized the upper mandible's bleeding spot, and she was on her way home.

The whole way to the vet she kept trying to get on my shoulder, and she kept cloth in her mouth putting pressure on the wound (these birds are super smart), and i kept talking calmly to her and she never fought/got elevated heartbeat. This is probably why the blood loss was not as bad.

Now some questions:

1) the vet said birds handle blood loss better than other animals, I didn't think this was true. Is it?

2) My roomie was a vet tech and said a grey can bleed out in 15 minutes from a broken blood feather, this is what prompted my fast reaction to this situation, from the photo -- did she lose too much blood?

3) Am I a bad parent?

I am one of those semi-perfectionists who beats themself up over things like this, and I'm still doing it today.

Thanks,
KC<br><br>Post edited by: kcfoxie, at: 2009/08/24 14:34

[Tycos_mom]

I don't think that your a bad parent your fast reaction to get her to the Vet was a good choice. I do think though from now on that you should leave the grooming of her beak and nails to a professional I won't even do my own grooming and I'm a experienced bird owner for me its not worth maybe hurting my birds to save 10 or 15 dollars to have an Avian vet clip their nails and trim their beaks or wings if needed that way if something happens I don't have to blame myself and I know the birds are in good hands. it was a expensive lesson for you to learn $115. to save $20. probably not the smartest thing to do but hey live and learn.

[judygram]

OMG KC, I think I would have freaked out but you did the right thing to stay calm, that probably helped to keep Lulu calm.

That does look like an awful large amount of blood to have been lost by her but if the vet thinks she is ok then she is. I don't know about the bleeding out in 15 minutes but they don't have that much to start with so any loss could have devastating effects.

Now I want to know why you were trimming her beak, I myself would never attempt to do that, my avain vet would be the one to trim Joseys but then he would know whether or not she needed it in the first place, may I suggest you leave that for those who are experienced in it.

I don't think you are a bad parront but you may have made an unwise decision to trim Lulu's beak yourself but then that is my opinion.

[casper]

That does look like a lot of blood to me!
If your vet said its quite normal though I suppose it must be!

I hope everything is ok today, dont beat yourself up things happen!

[danmcq]

What a scary situation!!

That looks like a lot of blood on your shirt. But, I have no clue how many cc's of blood the average CAG has.

It is said, a study was done on Ducks and it was found they can lose 60 percent of their blood and survive versus a mammal can only lose 50 percent.

I would never trim a birds beak unless it was overgrown and would have it done by a professional at the vets office so if something like this did happen, they would treat it on-scene immediately.

I can only imagine how scared you were. Good job on keep your composure and acting swiftly!! :-)

[ecodweeb]

To answer the questions:

I have always had to dremel Phoenix's beak because it is crooked (we don't know why it is). Jackie, the former vet tech who rescued him, used a dremel to work with his beak. The vet that he's been to uses clippers (which is why I thought this would be OK), and I never felt for the $26 they did a worthwhile job, and he'd have to go there twice a month. $30 for a battery powered dremel and new stones ($5/ea) every few months has been a better investment. He LOVES the dremel, and will open up for me to work on his beak.

Lulu's beak had an entire layer on the upper mandible that was flaking off (I should have taken photos of this), and despite having new perches that she can rub on... she's never had these before and so it started with dremeling the outside of the upper, whichs she liked and cooed out, and then we decided to try and work on the edges -- mostly the tip. She likes to get the cuticals of your fingers with the tip of her beak, it invokes an excruciating pain. And she does this when we ask her to step up and she refuses (remember this bird as absolutely no formal training and she's already 10 years old).

I decided after fighting with her for 20 minutes to just clip it, I was not happy with the choice but I felt it would be OK. Well, I was wrong, and I won't make that mistake again. If I can't use the dremel I'll deal with the lost flesh, or take her to Jackie (when I can get ahold of her -- owning two pet stores takes a lot of time).

I'm still shook up, she was very nonchelant about the ordeal. In the jeep she wanted to sit on my shoulder and kept saying "hello" and "its ok" ... which was a comfort to me.

I've been told it looks like I was stabbed in the photo, and that's why I was so scared. This wasn't a gushing, it was just a good drip. That is what is so alamring / why I felt this should be posted.

If you've ever thought about beak clipping, and you're not sure, this hopefully will make you think twice.

The reason I am not fearful of the dremel is as it grinds it cauterizes, I've not seen a bird bleed that was dremeled ... but it takes longer (and if she bites down on the bit she can stop it -- Phoenix cannot).

On the bright side to all this she's gained 12 grams of weight or so since we got her two weeks ago; and she has more feather growth on the back and wings and tail (thanks to the showering article, she's aking daily showers -- loves them -- and this is very much affecting the feather growth for the better).

So, I understand if what I did was "wrong" and trust me I will never use nail clippers again, not even on the nails, I will stick to the dremel and it's slow but safe process of grinding and cauterizing.

I also felt this was a LOT of blood loss, but they assured me birds do better with blodd loss than mamals do; despite their blood not clotting. I don't know if they were just trying to make me feel better or what, but the shirt didn't start to harden in the blood spot until after we got home -- a full two hours after the first drop or longer -- which is quite scary in and of itself. They told me they pull a little more blood for "full" blood work than what she'd dripped out on me and the towel ... they said it really was OK but I did the right things at the right times and that is what saved her.

I hate posting this as I believe everyone should feel confident enough to try and groom their companions, but, this is the real life result of if you do it wrong.<br><br>Post edited by: kcfoxie, at: 2009/08/24 16:33

[danmcq]

I for one appreciate your openness about this incident. It serves as a good warning to anyone that thinks trimming nails or beaks is a simple job.

It is difficult to control the bird properly in most cases if necessary and it has hazards as you mentioned.

We also use a Dremel for our Greys nails for the same reason of self cauterization, in case the quick is accidently hit. But, we just knock the needle tips off the Talons to stop the skin punctures.inch:

One note to all - The tip of a birds beak is VERY SENSITIVE and has several nerve endings in it.

[ecodweeb]

I fully admit that I did this wrong, and I am honestly nervous about working with her again. I may never try to work with her beak again, but I will continue to work with Phoenix's as we've never had a mishap.

So, yes, please think twice and realize that you may not be able to do the job. That's OK if that is the case.

[judygram]

Thanks KC for being so honest with us about what happened and it will serve as a warning to others who might think they can do it, it is something that is better left to those who are experienced with it.

I'm just glad she is ok and doing fine.

[luvparrots]

Glad to hear that everything is okay now. Your quick actions saved the day KC.